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HELP re a 1041 Estate taxes being taxed twice

shf1957
Level 7

Please help, I am trying to understand why this income I am putting on a 1041 seems to be ...being taxed twice.. once by the estate and again by the k1 receivers!  A relative died...so the family sold his home and have a gain of 45000.   they they also received a 1099R ending his retirement for 9800.  Putting the profit from the sale on the long term gain.... and the 1099R under other income.. there is a big tax load for roughly 11000.  when dividing it on 4 k1's.. they are being taxed again on the 25% of the sales..   I put the difference of the sale on the form the 8949 form and could only find a line for the 1099R on line 8.    PLEASE TELL me if I am doing this right...  OR should I do it with out K1's?   I sincerely appreciate any and all advice and HELP..  I am new at doing new estates..  Thank you for your time and consideration in this important matter.

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13 Comments 13
sjrcpa
Level 15

Did money get distributed? Is this a final 1041?

The income should not be taxed twice.


The more I know the more I don’t know.
BobKamman
Level 15

How can you have a gain on the sale of a decedent's home?  Did they take a couple years to sell it, in a rising market?  What did you use for cost basis, FMV at date of death, and selling expenses?

shf1957
Level 7

They used the 100 percent assessment value since it's never been appraised and they have no ideah of his cost and improvements over the years.  They lived states away and were his only living relatives.  They sold it for 425,000,   it was assessed for 329,500  and after attorney, real estate fees .. they only came out with 374,670. He owned it for over 25 yrs.. primary home... they sold it with in 3 months... to just unload it.

 

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BobKamman
Level 15

If it sold three months after death, I would use the selling price as FMV.  Either that or make sure my malpractice insurance covered gross negligence.  It doesn't matter that they have no idea of cost and improvements over the years, because those are irrelevant.  

shf1957
Level 7

they were not advised what to do.. so when they sold it.. they split the amount by 4 members.  ( never thought about taxes for the estate).  One for sure won't help out to pay any of the taxes...so was hoping we could just file the 1041 and get a total and pay it that way.  The other 3 said there was enough in the bank to just cover what that looked like for a total in taxes if it was paid through the estate..   There is no other income just the 1099R amount which could cover the taxes.

 

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shf1957
Level 7

Also when i did do k1's  with 25% each... they would owe on that 1/4th gain each and the estate amount stayed the same at the 100%... so it would be like double taxed.

 

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sjrcpa
Level 15

There are many things wrong with your picture.

As Bob pointed out, date of death value is most likely the basis. Was the assessment used for probate?

If money was distributed (and I don't think you answered), the 1041 should have an income distribution deduction.

What's this about members? Was it in an LLC? "they split the amount by 4 members."


The more I know the more I don’t know.
BobKamman
Level 15

@sjrcpa I think "they split the amount by 4 members" means family members, but who knows?  And it sounds like distributions were made if there was a split.  Bottom line is that there is a capital loss on the sale of the property, which should flow through to the beneficiaries on the final return.  Let's not get into choice of fiscal year, the real issue is choice of someone competent to do the 1041.  

How did they figure out what to ask for the selling price?  "Appraisal" means what you want it to mean.  

shf1957
Level 7

thank you

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shf1957
Level 7

I asked for help, not for insults.  I appreciated all of the good tax preparers for their help.

  I did enter it as a loss. ( selling price as the cost/value and a loss of the attorney/closing costs and real estate fees)    Though even though the 1099R is being taxed on the 1041 it also carried it over onto each of the FAMILY members K'1s by 25% each.. so in one sense it IS being accounted for and taxed twice.. once on the 1041 and on the 25% on each k1.

I am sorry you don't think I am competent.  I was asking for help since I didn't understand this. I was being honest and wanting to do it right and figured we are all there to help each other out in situations like this.  It takes alot to ask for help..  You see I am just a sole tax preparer and usually only don't have too many complex returns with outstanding situations.  I know they did this wrong from the beginning...But they were in Indiana, not home in NYS... and didn't contact me and were not advised by the attorney that ripped them off for 10,000. ( I say that because he should have advised the executress that she was entitled to take a fee, keep track of expenses to handle the estate  etc...so she lost out on that... so I could also call him incompetent, but I won't.   I am not crewl like that.   I do alot of senior's taxes for NO CHARGE, since they can't afford it living on social security.  I also do final returns when some one dies and don't charge the family.  I guess I am not a good business person.. but been doing this since 1981  so I am quite sure I must be a little competent with over 670 clients..that return each year.  I also have helped 2 get divorices and have taken numerous clients to Sloan Kettering Cancer Center for treatments... I guess you would call me a personal service Tax Lady that's phone rings all year long.. THANK YOU to all that have and can help me... I sincerely do appreciate all your educated advice! 

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BobKamman
Level 15

Six hours earlier you posted, " A relative died...so the family sold his home and have a gain of 45000."  If it took an insult to convince you that "I did enter it as a loss," then I am glad to have provided one. 

Even @sjrcpa was blindsided by your assertion that there was a gain, maybe because she's usually so polite.  

Accountant-Man
Level 13

Regardless of the rest of this discussion: in order to get ordinary income and capital gain income(if any) to be passed through to beneficiaries, you must make monetary distributions amounts on each k-1 AND you must make entries on Sch D after the long term section to show how much money is distributed to beneficiaries.

For capital losses to be passed through, the 1041 must be marked "Final" on Page 1.

** I'm still a champion... of the world! Even without The Lounge.
qbteachmt
Level 15

"so the family sold his home and have a gain of 45000"

"primary home... they sold it with in 3 months... to just unload it."

That has established the value, then. There is no gain and no need for an assessment or appraisal. Assessor rates are typically under market. Appraisals to establish FMV are moot, as long as it wasn't sold at some huge discount to a family member. If it was sold on the open market, that's its value by definition and that's why there is no concern as to original basis, improvements, gain or loss. The only expenses were the sale costs. There is no taxable gain for anyone to split.

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